🫠 Psychonaut POV

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Joe Moore has been beating the drum for a broader (and less sterile) discussion of psychedelics since 2016, when he and his friend Kyle launched a little podcast called Psychedelics Today. What began as a humble effort to preserve their breathwork teacher's legacy has since grown into one of the field's most respected and uncompromising voices.

We asked Joe how the psychedelic conversation has expanded beyond mental health, what limitations the drug war still imposes on research and safety, and what the movement needs more than anything right now.

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What made you and Kyle start Psychedelics Today ten years ago, and how has the conversation evolved since then?

We launched our first podcast episode in May 2016, though Kyle and I started talking in 2013 or 2014. Our breathwork teachers introduced us because they were surprised we didn't know each other. We started Psychedelics Today for three main reasons.

First, we wanted to preserve our teacher Lenny Gibson's legacy. He had so much hard-earned experience and led this beautiful community at workshops in Vermont. We started recording his talks because we didn't want that wisdom to stop with him.

Second, we wanted broader discussions in psychedelic science. Transpersonal psychology wasn't getting much attention at the conferences. The scene was really nascent. Everyone was trying to say "this is legitimate science, we're scientists, look at how good our science is." You can kind of lose the heart and soul of the thing that way.

Third, the conferences were getting redundant with too many of the same people. I wanted to see smaller, newer researchers get a platform.

Since then, we’ve started seeing psychedelics leave the couch. The conversation has expanded to looking at intravenous DMT for strokes and psilocybin for chronic pain conditions. We're seeing improvement in general brain health, beyond psychiatric conditions. It's no longer purely about wellness; it's about betterment of the world through creative problem solving, too. And we're seeing broader decriminalization conversations, which is great because the psychedelic movement is well served by partnering with existing drug activists working in other categories.

What applications or possibilities for psychedelics still aren't getting enough airtime?

I love challenging paradigms, and one that I often question is this idea that mental health is the thing that's going to solve everything. There's a famous book by James Hillman called We've Had a Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World's Getting Worse. Just because somebody's no longer radically depressed doesn't mean that's the best life they could be living.

The snarky socialist critique of mental healthcare is that it’s not really about making sure everyone’s living their most vibrant life. It's about keeping butts in seats at jobs so industry can keep rolling. The psychedelic conversation can expand the scope of mental healthcare, though. You have an experience and think, “Maybe I do need to start being in right relationship with the world and other people.” I’m not saying everyone needs to quit their job. But after psychedelics, you might realize how much you're sacrificing to perform and climb the ladder, or that the way in which you're doing it is wildly unhealthy.

For example, could we expand our definition of mental health to include pleasure? Dee Dee Goldpaugh, who I had on the show recently, wrote a book called Embrace Pleasure where they talk about including pleasure in the caring professions like social work and therapy. As a society, are we pleasure anemic? That's a real question we should be asking. Obviously mindfulness is a big part of that, and psychedelics can lead us to more skillful states of mindfulness.

We're arguably a decade-plus into this "psychedelic renaissance," but the drug war still shapes everything. What are the biggest limitations it's imposing on the field right now?

We can't do appropriate research on naturalistic users on account of criminalization. People are literally risking their freedom to participate in psychedelic science from the naturalistic lens, and we're missing huge amounts of data as a result. Then there's the added burden for psychedelic researchers of operating labs—special permits, multiple safes and locks, frequent DEA inspections. All this compliance stuff is super expensive, and it radically reduces the pace at which we can do science.

Beyond research, there are super huge safety issues. At the Berkeley Psychedelic Safety Institute Summit, it was pretty unwelcome to talk about underground use cases, even though they easily account for 99% of use cases today. They only wanted to talk about Colorado, Oregon, and clinical trials. Of course, we need to improve safety in those settings, too, but that's not where the largest safety gains are going to be made.

How do we improve safety in underground 5-MeO-DMT sessions and ayahuasca ceremonies? How do we account for endangered species like toad and peyote? We can't have those conversations under prohibition because if people admit anything, they're exposing themselves to legal ramifications.

Then, there’s the issue of funding. Many science funders and philanthropists are afraid to contribute to anything that's not totally above-board because they're exposing themselves to liabilities. A politician can always change their mind and retroactively criminalize behaviors. You can become unpopular in your social circles just by contributing to these causes. The few who do contribute usually insist on anonymity.

How does transpersonal breathwork relate to psychedelics, and why should people pay attention to substance-free altered states?

Grof-lineage breathwork is a direct descendant of LSD-assisted psychotherapy work and prohibition. It came out of Esalen, which was a huge psychedelic hub, and is heavily informed by psychedelics and the whole history of European psychotherapy, including shamanic practices. It's a fusion of the old and the new.

After some practice, people will often say these experiences have been more impactful or powerful than some of their most important psychedelic experiences. That's been true for me and for Stan Grof. Breathwork offers a very similar experience in terms of being a “non-specific amplifier” that brings unconscious material to conscious awareness.

The point I like to make about breathwork, though, is that it gives additional agency to the participant because the whole experience is coming from you. This is not some exogenous substance doing some magic to you; it's literally you and your body making it happen. You have the agency to turn it up or down at almost any point. That’s not true with ayahuasca, LSD, or mushrooms.

I also see it as an evolution toward a more leaderless process. How do we make me as the facilitator less important? The participants in the group being together is actually the important thing. Group is healing. We're all descendants of successful tribes, and we need these group experiences of witnessing, being witnessed, and participating deeply in each other's processes.

What does the psychedelic movement need most right now? Where should people be focusing their energy?

Compassion and a willingness to try to understand each other. Full stop. We just get so wrapped up in our own stories that it's hard to pause and see each other’s perspectives.

I'll also say a healthy dose of vigilance, because we do need to be careful right now on the internet. With the increase in government surveillance and private-public partnerships around data collection, there's no reason to believe your data won't be used against you in the future. You could be clearly identified as a drug user based on your internet history, making you not a desirable person for office or not eligible for international travel. We really don’t know what future governments are going to do with this data set.

I identify very publicly as paranoid and explain to everybody why they should be more careful. We're carrying around spy devices every single day in our pocket. But beyond that, I believe in a fully expressed, free, and empowered humanity. We shouldn't allow tyrants to dictate what we do with our lives, bodies, minds, and spirits.

So yes, we need to be vigilant. But the most egregious thing you could do is fold and hide your light. We really owe it to the world to show up as truly “us” as we can, in a big, helpful way. Your thing might not be activism. It could be oil painting. But whatever it is, figure it out and give it all you’ve got. If you haven’t found it yet, psychedelics can help.

Want more from Joe?

Subscribe to Psychedelics Today wherever you get your podcasts, and join their new-and-improved, live breathwork and psychedelics course.

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DISCLAIMER: This newsletter is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice. The use, possession, and distribution of psychedelic drugs are illegal in most countries and may result in criminal prosecution.